Navigating Life as we Know It

11. Creative Housing Options

November 18, 2020 Envision Media Group Season 1 Episode 11
Navigating Life as we Know It
11. Creative Housing Options
Chapters
Navigating Life as we Know It
11. Creative Housing Options
Nov 18, 2020 Season 1 Episode 11
Envision Media Group

Steve's visit with Attorney Dan Baluw, discussing the various legal aspects of Housing for people with disabilities!

Show Notes Transcript

Steve's visit with Attorney Dan Baluw, discussing the various legal aspects of Housing for people with disabilities!

Steve:

Hi, this is Steve. For many people visiting with an attorney is not a pleasant idea. So Matter of fact that's probably on par with a dental appointment for a root canal work expensive and painful. And with the advent of online Do It Yourself legal services some folks up for the Do It Yourself option thinking they'll be able to say what they believe to be an exorbitant attorney fee. For some simple legal transactions that might suffice. But when it comes to matters of greater importance, however, much larger costs may be incurred by not getting it right the first time. A good attorney specializing in disability law can keep you from making costly mistake and may save you far more money than the fee they charge. When it comes to creating housing options for a member of your family with developmental or intellectual disabilities, it is wise to deal with an experienced attorney. I have known attorney Dan Blau since we first moved to West Michigan 14 years ago. He is the go to expert on Disability Law and estate planning. I spoke with Dan several months ago before COVID-19 rocked our world with social distancing, and face masks. The topic of our discussion was creative housing for people living with disabilities. For your convenience, we are posting the PowerPoint that Dan uses on our Facebook and our website. We'll also provide Dan's website and contact information should you wish to contact him. Now let's move on to our conversation with Dan flowers. were put down below now and talking about alternate forms of housing for people with disabilities. Dan, did you want to start out with some Yeah, sure. Thank

Unknown:

Hey, thanks for inviting me again. And so you're welcome. I've been working on housing for people with disabilities for quite a few years now back since I was the director of the arc here in Kent County, and I worked another with another nonprofit called hope network that does housing development for people with disabilities. And what we found is that people don't just want to pick the group home down the street, or some group home that they're not very familiar with, as our whole concept of self determination really gets embedded in our practices, who people want to create their own housing options, and one that really fits their needs and their family's needs. So there's a lot of interest in this topic of creative housing for people with disabilities. But it's not for the faint of heart, because it requires you to kind of know a lot about the funding streams for both the brick and mortar and the support services. I guess the three main points, I would say near the beginning of this are that there is more variety now. And people can be more directly involved in setting up the housing options they really want, especially through consumer control and self determination. But you have to understand the support services. that's point number two, and the support services are much harder to put together than the brick and mortar, they have to understand how public benefits work. In terms of your SSI and SSDI. And especially Medicaid, you have to understand how private funds could be in the picture to augment the government benefits to get what you want. And so understanding support is the real challenge of this whole topic. And it's really easier to arrange for brick and mortar than it is to pay for staff support, I get a lot of calls from families to say, hey, I'd love to set my son Ben up in a house that is a great little house, that's one block away from mom and dad, and they would love to see it get set up by mom and dad are still alive and kicking. And they get all entranced with the idea of having that particular house. And a lot of times a parent could buy a house or they could help arrange for the son with disabilities to buy a house there. But you can't just jump into the brick and mortar without knowing how the support services are going to work. So that request you then to go kind of legal on this to figure out what are the structures and this is my last introductory point is that it will sometimes take technical assistance and legal assistance and how to hold this property and how to arrange for the support and how will the funds from a trust fit in with the other public sector funds. It's not really easy to do, but it sure is satisfying when you can make it work. So that's kind of where I'm going this afternoon is, you know, how can we give people more options? How can we fund the support services? How can we pick brick and mortar and maybe even have some new resources for the development of brick and mortar that this system may not have considered before? And then what kinds of legal advice do you need to get to put this all together? So it's putting the pieces together that we're talking about so back to the issue of The first fork in the road is really do you want to create something that's like licensed foster care in Michigan, they call it adult foster care, even if it's run by mom and pop or if it's run by the mental health system. There's a lot of different kinds of adult foster care under Michigan licensure laws, and CF to understand sometimes mom and pop foster care can be really a good option for some people, they know that there's this six or 10 persons that have lived in this foster care setting for a lot of years. And it's being run well, and it's being run by Mr. And Mrs. Jones. And they're experts in putting together foster care. But then what if Mr. And Mrs. Jones decided to close up shop and moved to Florida, or what if one of them has a heart attack, some of the proprietary foster care is not as stable as you would hope there's other kinds of foster care that are directly connected to the community mental health system, where they fund the creation of what they call specialized residential settings for people that have pretty high needs. And they have a lot of rules on how to run that and how to staff it and how to create menus that are up to snuff, with the licensure and out of post menus and all that kind of stuff becomes quite institutional in a lot of ways. And that's not really where some of the families are, they want to, they want to have a house there where the support is proper. But the rules are tailored to what they need, not a one size fit all set of rules like having to put the menu on the side of the refrigerator at a certain date about what they're going to serve and all that stuff, more consumer control. So what's really happening is there's a lot of families out there that want to create housing that want to either hook up with an existing nonprofit agency, or create a new nonprofit agency, or just do it within their family. And then those are options that are, are well trod now or well created across the state. So let's move a little bit how can you hold real estate if a family especially wants to be at the center of creating supportive living for their own son or daughter, and that just wait for the next slide of housing and specialized residential, and there's really four ways to kind of hold the real estate. One is ownership by the person with a disability, they can own their own home, and it doesn't count against them when they figure out if they're below that $2,000 asset limit for SSI or Medicaid. So there can be a home ownership option. But there's some pros and cons to that, we'll talk about that. Then there's ownership by the family where they just like my example that I started out with where they know there's a house down the street, and they want to own the house as a family on that their own son with disabilities live there with a couple of his buddies, that's an option. There's a acquisition and handing over the house to a special needs trust that might have been created for the person with a disability. And that has some pros and cons and a lot of pros to it. And then there's development by nonprofit organizations, how can a nonprofit be in the picture to help create this, this apartment or this housing or this kind of

Steve:

what you're talking about is not unique to the state of Michigan, many of these things are going to be the same no matter where you live, there could be some differences in points of the law. But for the most part, a lot of this is going to be able to transfer over to almost any

Unknown:

That's true. And there's great examples around the country of creating housing and regular stock of houses and apartments in the community. The rational intentional communities and the people in Evanston, Illinois, and others are Madison, Wisconsin, I think is a real innovative setting for doing a lot of creative housing. So it's all over the country. But this is what I've learned a little bit in Michigan. So the first option that I just mentioned, was direct ownership by the person with a disability. And the pros for that, of course, is the pride of ownership by the person with the disability and their family, more direct consumer control over that brick and mortar, deciding who's going to be the housemaid if they want to house meat, and a great way to encourage personal growth by the person with a disability. But the downside of that direct ownership is it's true that it's an exempt homestead while they own it, and that's their principal residence. But what if it's not working out and they need to sell it and they own it, and now the proceeds are $100,000 of equity stuck in their pocket. Now they're too rich to get Medicaid. And they have to put it into some other exempt resource including maybe a special needs trust, a self funded special needs trust, but it can be more complicated. There's some property tax advantages of having well not a there's not a property tax advantage of being a direct ownership by yourself. You still pay regular property taxes, but that is Those are pros and cons. And I've worked on examples of somebody who had active parents who wanted to buy a house on fuller Avenue. And they did. And they got a person from the church to live in the house with him. And he invited a couple of his best buddies to live there with him. And he had the mortgage, there was a little bit of either underwriting by the nonprofit that I worked for, and putting it together, but he owned it. And actually, he paid it off, paid off his mortgage about two years ago. And then unfortunately, he recently passed away. But he, he had a house of his own and is very proud

Steve:

about it. You did mention that if one of the kinds of ownership is if they sell the house, and there's a large gain. But obviously, if they sell a house and buy a condo and reinvest that money, it doesn't affect rent benefits, you just have to make sure that the proceeds go into something else that's

Unknown:

exempt, like another homestead that's your principal residence or

Steve:

a really expensive car.

Unknown:

Theoretically, yes, you could own one car and still be on Medicaid. So what about this next option of family ownership, because some examples of having done that where the family actually just purchased a freestanding condo as part of a condo project, but it's like a freestanding house. And they wanted the pros of the family determining who would live there with her daughter, the family could actually have the benefit of the growth and equity of the house over time. And they can participate in setting the house rules that they would like to set for their daughter. But the downside is the family is actually the landlord of them. And not every family is adept at being a landlord and some families are running out of gas, they're tired they've been even though they've had their son or daughter living with them for 40 years, they're not sure if they want to stay that active in being the landlord for their daughter and their other friends that might live there. And so there's some downside to family ownership. But it's a it's a balancing act. The biggest goal is permanency after they're gone. And what if mom and dad have a stroke, and they can't do that landward function, and none of the other kids or family members seem able to do it or want to do it, it could start to fall apart if it's just family owned. So that may not have quite as much permanency and security is, as some of the other options. That kind of brings us to this hybrid approach of having a special needs trust owning a house, you can create a trust. And just as a review, trust is a legal document where you title property in the name of the trust either bank accounts or real estate or any kind of property in a lot of cases. And once it's held by the special needs trust with the rules set out in the trust and under trust law, then what's in the right kind of trust does not count against them when they figure out if they're eligible for Medicaid. So that's good. And if the house is owned by the trust, it's not a countable asset, that if even if even if they move out, and it loses a homestead status or cannot be considered a homestead, they can still the trust still owns it and they can sell it when it's time and buy another house, the trust can buy another house for the benefit of that same son or daughter. So the pros of having a trust on real estate are that the trust ownership has some of the benefits of a direct family ownership and a lot of ways because the families set up the trust. But it has this is key. A Trust has a firmer succession plan for what will happen when mom and dad get sick or pass away. And it can have a succession of Trustees that you know they're in place. they've agreed to do it in advance, even if it's a corporate trustee, and they will carry it on he passed the life of the parents. So that has a sense of permanency that's a little stronger beyond the life of any given individual. The downside of having a trust on it is it might increase the property taxes. Trust ownership, oftentimes the property taxes will be higher, won't be subject to some of the special tax advantages of having direct home ownership. Yet it can be difficult finding a successor trustee somebody will take over when the parents can't. So you have to think that through carefully and that's what attorneys and other housing specialists will help a family do. The last option that I'm going to mention and this is one that has a lot of interest by a lot of families is well, you know, there's we're not rich and we don't have a lot of money to put together this house and put together this service funding package. But what if we were a nonprofit corporation where we could get gifts from the community and from foundations and from others that be tax deductible gifts to A nonprofit with that help us get the money we need to put this up. And then a lot of cases at will. And when you're a nonprofit organization to create supportive housing, it doesn't mean you have to create licensed adult foster care. And you can be a nonprofit that creates supportive living, and in unlicensed settings, regular houses, and apartments and condos. And so nonprofits are key in a lot of cases. The other big advantage of a nonprofit Housing Corporation is it has an inside track of getting certain funds from the government to put up the house. Now, HUD, Housing and Urban Development passes out a lot of dollars to create affordable rental units for people with disabilities who are low income. And to understand all those rules of how housing grants work from the government is a little daunting, but it's not insurmountable. I always say that a good housing specialist is got to be bilingual, they have to be able to speak HUD, and they have to be able to speak community mental health CMH. And those two worlds don't know each other very well. But if a nonprofit organization can apply for government benefits that are for affordable housing, for people with disabilities, they can get some big chunks of money. And that's what I did when I worked with hope network because we applied for HUD and Mista and Housing Trust Fund and low income housing tax credits and all these fancy ways of raising capital to put up a nice place. And then the mental health system takes up from there and figures out how can we put our Medicaid dollars toward the support staffing in that affordable place that wood has been created. And so that people can afford to live in a decent place without having to have ongoing huge gifts from family and friends for the long haul. They still use private money in the mix, but it helps when the housing is free and clear. So we've created examples here in my presentation of four houses side by side that we're all set up to serve people with disabilities and three in each house. Rule of thumb when you create new housing from scratch is have as many bathrooms as you have bedrooms. That sounds silly, you can save a lot on support staffing costs, if people have their own private space rather than that's always shared. And of course, foster care. It's almost always shared space both in the bedrooms and in and bathrooms. But if you create housing intentionally, with that little rule of thumb, you can sometimes avoid some support costs

Steve:

more for the extra plumbing at the outset. In the long run, it's going to be less expensive.

Unknown:

And for the staffing support. That's our experience. So we've created all three or 400 units of housing over a few years all around Michigan, on how to put together the HUD and other Mr. Michigan State Housing Development Authority money to create affordable rental units for people with disabilities. So there's examples here we've got all kinds of examples where nonprofits are in the picture. that a lot of times if the State Housing Authority is giving you a grant to put up brick and mortar, they'll want to make sure that that project is not commingled or intermixed with other projects that could go bad. So they like to have a new little nonprofit for each project that they helped fund. And so we created probably 30 little nonprofits that would hold brick and mortar and develop rental housing under the rules of those grants that we got. Another source of the grants is the Federal Home Loan Bank that gives grants for the development of affordable rental housing,

Steve:

something similar can be developed and other states they might have their own Misha, but it might be the Wyoming version of it. That's right.

Unknown:

So Illinois is to get its own Housing Development Authority, and most states do so. And it's all really comes from the federal government passed down through HUD grants. There's a lot of fancy name programs for how they do disability related housing development. The ones that you see most often are just HUD grants, HUD 811, programs 811. It's just the section of the law that created this funding stream, and everybody knows them as HUD 811 programs. There's some creative housing that's done by shelter plus support, they call it shelter Plus, they recognize that there's a need for development of rental housing that's affordable for people that are on SSI or just above the SSI level, which isn't very much deliver. You need subsidized rents and a housing and so the HUD piece that you can weave in there, if you can Speak HUD and apply for HUD grants really makes it affordable because then you only pay one third of your SSI. SSI this year is something like 783 a month, you only pay one third of that is your rent for room and utilities. If you live in a HUD packed place like that, there's other rental schemes and different kinds of programs. But they're all exciting in terms of being able to make it affordable to live in a decent place, then the private money can be used to augment Medicaid, if possible, to create the kind of support staffing structure that you really want. There's examples of how we've put together condo projects and, you know, group rental projects. In order to make it affordable using our government backed and gifted money if you're a nonprofit, that's tax deductible by the donor. I know that's a lot to throw at people in terms of how to put it together. But I would just say that, don't get too excited about the brick and mortar location. First, figure out what you really need and start working the person centered planning process through the mental health system. Sometimes they call it person centered planning, sometimes they call it self determination, or individual service budgets or CLS Community Living supports, figure out what's going to be available for the staffing support that you need, and then get excited about how to either create a new place that might even be more family controlled, like through a trust, or have connection to a nonprofit that is developing a bunch of housing for people with disabilities and how can you get involved with them? Or I guess the last alternative is, how can you maybe be at the forefront of creating a new nonprofit organization that can do the application for some of these grants and gifts. And if you leaning toward creating a new nonprofit, in other words, you like the idea of having family control and being at the center of this really consumer driven by what you need. But you don't want to necessarily just jump on to another nonprofit housing development organization, then there's a little bit of legal work to do. And I think there's a real need for attorneys like us and others who can help put together the corporate structures for the nonprofit organization or help with the special needs trust, if you choose to actually own the property in a special needs trust, or just give you advice about how your government benefits are going to be affected by all this. There's a need for technical assistance. And it's just not there so much for so many families. My big push and so many years and are not very successful yet in this is how can we get localized Clearinghouse organizations to really track who's doing what you know, who's doing licensed foster care who's doing as a nonprofit, the development of affordable rental housing for people with cognitive impairments, or autism or Down syndrome, what families have gone out and really, really worked hard to create something that's that's family driven to get what they really want in that house that's down the street, would they be willing to share information with other people, we just everybody seems to be starting from scratch. And Steve, you and I have talked about this for many years. We're not very far on creating that kind of clearing house, but we need it. And before I retire, we're going to get it some help. So it's a it's a big topic, it's exciting topic. There's a lot of good success stories, I would say as a cautionary measure at the end here that it's not like you create this housing and you wind it up like a clock. And it just takes until it's done. And they are all you don't need it anymore. You do have to tweak these housing arrangements over time, you get a mix of two or three people that are great, and then the mix changes. And that's not great. And you got to figure out how to enforce rules and how to do blended management. One of the key things for this concept of supportive housing is or key organizations is this thing called the Corporation for Supportive Housing. It's a national effort to do supportive living and regular houses that are affordable. And they have the concept that I think is very simple, but very true. Usually the things that are true are the simplest, you have to have blended management of the landlord function in the support service function. If somebody is decompensating and not able to fill the rules or follow the rules to live there in a safe way then you don't just kick them out because and that's what foster carers used to do is kick people out they couldn't fit the rules. He accommodate them, you do blended management, you figure out what will help them fulfill their obligation to protect the rights of quiet enjoyment of the other people that are next door. And so you really have to go with the flow and bend over time as to how you create this. And there needs to be somebody that a family especially can rely on to make that work overtime. You know, there is a misnomer out there that people think well, the higher need you are, the more disabled you are, the more you need to be in foster care. And that's not really true. There's some people who have very high needs who don't do well in a six bit group home, and will never do well on a six bit group home because of their behaviors. So you may look at somebody that's got high behavioral needs and needs almost one on one staffing all the time. But they can do a much better in a smaller setting or a one person setting sometimes. Now there's a challenge for how to really meet somebody's high needs and one person home money wise. But there's ways of blending that together to make it work better than than a than a six pack group. So don't presume that high need people have to be in foster care. And that's only the high functioning people, they can go into supportive living in an unlicensed setting, absolutely

Steve:

appropriately supported. I like that term, because it could be very high level of support or a low level of support or something in the middle. But for the individual, the appropriate level of support can in many, many cases allow them to live far more independently than in a group home. But for some folks, a group home might be the best solution. Dan, I think you have there's anything else you want to add in here. I do have one more question. Somebody is hearing this and an area where there's not a lot of support, and they may maybe live in a rural environment. And they want to take a look at some kind of creative housing for their son or daughter. What is the best way for them to get started in in terms of attorneys, it's like doctors, you know, you don't want to go for a heart problem to a podiatrist. attorneys do specialize. If they're Grand Rapids, they want to talk to you. But let's say they're in a state,

Unknown:

it is hard when you're sitting up in the center of the Upper Peninsula of Michigan with very few people around that have similar needs. And how do you really put this together, you really need to reach out to us, I would say one of the government backed resources that people often miss is organizations that are funded by the federal government, as in DD councils, developmental disability councils and the like. They're funded, really, by federal legislation at every state, every state has one or the same grant source that funds DD councils also funds things that are called protection and advocacy organizations, usually in the state capital of the state. But they have satellite offices around many states, where you can call them and say, they're the closest thing to a clearinghouse that we have, I would say it's not perfect, but they at least can put you in touch with organizations that already are trying to do what you think you need, and help you brainstorm on putting it together. It doesn't mean they're going to put together all the housing themselves, but they give out grants to organizations to do this. We'd love to have a grant in Michigan from the DD Council to do this Clearinghouse function to set up a website where people can look in their state at who's doing hopefully one of these years don't fund that will keep trying. No.

Steve:

The other thing is that most states have not all of them have an arc, you know, area Resource Center. And most of them have something called the CI l for Center for Independent Living, but they have different names for them. Like in Kent County here in Michigan, it's

Unknown:

disability have this count right deck

Steve:

is the acronym they use for that. And along the Lakeshore, we have disability network Lake Shore, but they are both CIOs and new if you look up Center for Independent Living for the state that you live in, you'll probably find that and many of them might be able to give you a very valuable information is how to get started or get in touch with other people that have a similar interest that you might didn't even know they exist in the next town. So there's always going to be a solution. Some will be easier than others, but they're all worthwhile pursuing. Thanks, Steve. Hey, thank you, Dan. Appreciate it. And we'll be visiting again on other issues.

Kerry Johnson:

This is the end Locky chat cafe portion of the episode. And all I need to say in regards to this chat with Dan Blau is it might have been a short episode but wow, lots of information. Lots and lots of information. Sometimes it seems overwhelming. But you know, sometimes it's like, Okay, I've got options. So let's grab your coffee or whatever beverage based on the time of day and your driving abilities. And let's have some chats about this. Steve, what are your high points,

Steve:

there was a lot packed into the episode when Dan was talking about pirate and Misha, and but the good news is, that means there is a lot of aid and opportunity. And so when you talk to somebody who does speak HUD and speaks community mental health, or CMH, you might find is plenty of possibilities that didn't exist before. And you don't have to know about all of them, all you have to do is find the best one and pursue that. To be an expert on all things, you know, HUD and Misha and everything else is daunting.

Kerry Johnson:

And you know, sometimes people get stuck in a specific pattern, right?

Steve:

Yes, absolutely. But what happens is, you know, just from our own experience, first thing I thought about as well, I don't want him in a group home, because I'm afraid he'll be stifled because Liam, will become part of it, you'll become a wallflower. And he doesn't really unless he's challenged, he will kind of go with the easiest course. And a lot of people will do that. And I want him challenged. Okay, so I'm thinking, there's a lot that he can do on his own. If he's given the opportunity, if somebody else does it for him, he never will. So okay, well just check off, we don't want a group home, then we don't want this kind of, we don't want that cane. And we're not really trying to match up what he needs with what is best for his life, what he desires for his life. Nobody, when we got to be of an age to move out of our parents house came along and chose something for us without us having input into it. And I think even though in our case in a Liam is not very verbal, we can still impute what some of his interests are, and whether he likes what we're talking about for an alternative place to live. It shouldn't be just based upon what we think is best as parents. I know some parents have said, Well, I can't see any paying any rent. You know, I want to have homeownership. So he builds equity. But that might not give the right location for the individuals desires, if they are supports, or supports. Yeah, I mean, there's more than one thing to consider is not just location

Kerry Johnson:

now, like Dan said, Have

Steve:

you have you fall in love with the brick and mortar down the street and you want to buy that house? Because it looks good? And it's a great deal? Is that right?

Unknown:

My mom and dad? Yeah, but

Steve:

a neighbor might not be in a transportation route where your child can take the bus or get picked up and might not be close to activities that might not have

Kerry Johnson:

nothing's The other piece is this, okay? As a parent, I'm a little bit older than Liam, pretty sure he's going to outlive me at this point, right. So that down the street from me now might be really nice. But he's not going to be down the street from other siblings or the other supports that we're going to put in place that will catch him when we're gone. So things to think about and, and as a as a parent, because we are overwhelmed with all the other things that are always going on. We may not think about all of these things, which again, goes back to getting the and I loved how I loved how Dan said the technical support, yes. to somebody to be able to say to you, that's a really good idea. Did you think about this, and I didn't, but now I shall. And that is the value of that technical support. Not only will they speak the language, but they will ask you questions that I don't even know that that I need to answer yet. And you find those attorneys, if you're living outside of this area, where Dan Blau is the I think hands down expert,

Steve:

if you're looking for someone, the best thing to do is contact protection and advocacy. Now in Michigan, they call that Michigan disability rights. Okay? They just changed the name of it. But every state has an organization like that. They know all the people that are working on housing throughout your state. So you could say, you know, call them up and say we're looking for a really good attorney who knows the technical jargon for putting together some kind of housing option in they'll say, well just call this one, maybe one or two or three people that have the, the expertise for that. Because you're not going to find it looking at life necessarily. No, no, you want to find it by by people that understand what they're doing. There's also an organization called the Coalition for Community Choice, their website provide search capacities so you can enter whether you want to live alone, or you want to have a roommate where you prefer to live, how you prefer to live, the level of support needed, and the type of disability and it can make suggestions for different areas of the country where that type of housing is available. I should just Yeah, right. And you can give them a call. That's how we found that heritage farmer is something in Illinois that yes, they don't have any openings for the next 50 years. But there's a problem with some of them. But you know, they all will talk to you. And they all share ideas. This is a great group of people that share ideas and how to to make something work,

Kerry Johnson:

right. And we just have to keep, we just have to keep connecting these things together. You know, like Dan said, there's not a central clearinghouse. But as we continue to draw these things together, we're going to get there, we're going to get that Clearinghouse because we're going to start broadcasting that information.

Steve:

I think, basically don't get overwhelmed. think first of all,

Kerry Johnson:

well, yeah, Perkins, get overwhelmed, and then calm down. Don't eat the whole elephant, just write one bite,

Steve:

it's a matter of what is the most important thing and us most important thing that most people have told me parents over the years is, I want my son or daughter, to have friends. I want them to have a meaningful life to them to do things that they enjoy. I want them to be safe. I want them to experience life like anybody else, right? They have to be able to take some risks and maybe fail and learn but always have that safety net of family support or friendship support. Well, thank you very much. You want to take us out or you want me to take us out?

Kerry Johnson:

I will do that honors. Thank you so much for listening to us. I hope you found this most informative. I hope that worked for you as well. I want to thank our producer, Alexander Johnson for his time and reining us in and keeping us on track our daughter, Holly Johnson, for the graphics and the design of our website and all the things behind the scenes that she does. Thanks to our intern, Daniela Munoz, for her behind the scenes gathering of information and output of information. And she's a rich person in research and our and our show also touches base with the people that we've already got interviews with and make sure that everything is ready in a low packet. And she just keeps us all together so nicely. Thank you, Danielle. And our listeners. Thank you so much as you remember, if you need us to delve into something a little bit more, send us a note. Check us out on Facebook, let us know. Thanks very much. Bye

Unknown:

bye