12. Workforce Solutions for Individuals with Disabilities

We take a dive into Michigan Rehabilitation  Services programs and offerings with  Vocational Rehabilitation Counselor Cassaundra Wolf.

Transcript

Steve: 0:09

Hi, this is Steve, for many of us work is what we do because we have bills to pay. But for a lucky few their work is a vocation. It's the work they choose because it brings meaning to their life and makes a difference in the lives of others. Today we visit with casandra. Wolf, a vocational rehabilitation counselor at Michigan rehabilitation services in Grand Rapids, Michigan. casandra has a master's in social work from Western Michigan University, and she's also a person who lives with disability. Now, let's go on to our conversation with casandra. Wolf. Welcome to navigating life as we know it. I am your host, Steve Johnson. And today our guest is casandra. Wolf. Cassandra is someone I met through Facebook originally, but unlike many Facebook fans, we've actually met face to face also. And I think that was probably two or three years ago, I can't recall. But you were working at the time for Disability Advocates of Kent County, what what were you doing in that role at that time?

Cassaundra Wolf: 1:16

At that time, I was probably working as an independent living, navigator, shopping people with disabilities with all sorts of different connections in their lives. And some of that did kind of go into employment related needs, and helping them prepare with building a resume doing interview skills. And I was also kind of dabbling in the advocacy department. So writing blog posts about what it means to have a disability, how do we get connected with our policymakers? Things like that. That's a good rule.

Steve: 1:50

It sounds like it was something you found very fulfilling. And I'm sure that it benefited many people that you work with. Today, I wanted to go over your job, your current position at Michigan rehabilitative services, my understanding is you were basically a counselor that works with individuals seeking employment. Yeah,

Unknown: 2:10

yeah. So um, Michigan rehabilitation services, or M RS is a state agency that finds its place, helping people with disabilities to either maintain their current employment or to find employment. We are an eligibility based program, and we help people by kind of similar will apply for our services, and then we have to kind of get medical determinations and figure out okay, what is that person's barriers? What are their strengths? What are their capabilities? And what are their interests to kind of then help them prepare for the workforce?

Steve: 2:45

Are you involved in the skill building section of it also?

Unknown: 2:49

A little bit, my role, I'm a rehabilitation counselor, so I would really be working with someone to connect them. Once they can do various number of assessments, I'd be connecting them with maybe online programs, or different two week practice situational assessments or things like that, to help them find those areas to build those skills. A lot of what I do is vocational counseling. So I've been speaking with, we call them customers speaking with a customer one on one about, you know, what are your fears about going back to work, worst concerns you have? What are some resources that you need? How can I connect you with those resources that help you be successful as an employee?

Steve: 3:28

I bet it feels very good for them to know they have an ally, someone who's asking some very important questions as to how can we make this a successful experience?

Unknown: 3:36

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it really does help that I, myself have physical disabilities, I am legally blind, and I have cerebral palsy. And at one point, I was a recipient of vocational services through Mrs. His sister organization, the bureau services for blind person. And so I kind of very much relate with what my customers are going through, because I was one on the other side of the table, meeting with vocational counselor learning my own skills, so I can kind of come alongside of them in that way to, to not only understand all of these systems that we have to navigate as a professional, but I understand it very personally, as someone who's also navigated those as someone who lives disabilities, everything.

Steve: 4:22

Frankly, I think it's not that it's not possible for somebody without a disability to serve in that role. But I think it's a huge advantage to have that level of relatedness to the people you're talking with. I mean, your street cred has got to be way up there. And the types of people you're working with, they could be disabled by many different causes, is it primarily developmental disabilities?

Unknown: 4:46

It's the whole gamut. And all of the counselors kind of have specific groups of populations of people that they work with. So we do very much have a counselor in our Grand Rapids office who is stationed at Mary free bed for most of her time and she does work with those individuals, even other counselor in our office who really focuses on working on and has a knowledge base of working with folks who have traumatic brain injuries, developmental disabilities, I think can it comes across the gamut, I have very specific criteria, the types of programs that we have. And because we are looking for competitive integrated employment, we're hoping to assist people to find jobs in the same workforce that anyone without a disability could be looking at as well. My caseload, in particular, my customers ranging the ages 18 to 72. So I basically have the entire adult lifespan, and I've got people with physical disabilities, people with autism, I have a lot of very significant mental health concerns schizophrenia, bipolar, depression, anxiety. So it really does cover the gamut of disability. As long as someone has a mental or physical impairment that can we can receive documentation about, and it does substantially limit their ability to work, then it's possible that they would be a good candidate for our services.

Steve: 6:13

And I'm sure that all of them are successful.

Unknown: 6:16

Connect, I think, with anyone, the job market can be a difficult place. So if you're adding specific disability to that search, it can be a struggle, but what I've always believed about our services is that if we're doing our job correctly, as vocational counselors, when someone comes through our doors, if they leave our services, even if they don't find employment, hopefully, they will have learned some skills and some strength about themselves that they can go and come back maybe in six months to a year, something on their own. So it's never it's never a one and done kind of deal. We are always available. doors are always open. It just simply takes an application process.

Steve: 6:58

Well, life doesn't work one and done either. It sometimes, no opportunities come at times. You don't expect it in sometimes if they're prepared for that next job that comes along. they've discovered some things about themselves and picked up some skills. For people who might be listening to this that are outside of the Michigan area. Mary free bed is a rehabilitative hospital that works with people that individuals with like a traumatic brain injury, developmental disabilities, they're an amazing institution, they do a great job. Also, could you explain what people might not know what competitive integrated employment means?

Unknown: 7:34

Sure. So competitive, integrated employment is a type of job where a person with a disability applying for that job could expect that they are competing against other people may or may not have disabilities, and that they could expect the same wages as those individuals who do or do not have disabilities. And so they are competing in a job market, just like everyone else who doesn't have a desert, I guess, in contrast, is very different from a sheltered work environment, which case a job would be kind of carved out specifically for someone with a disability. There are programs, certainly that that provide that we don't from an Mrs. standpoint, based on federal legislation.

Steve: 8:22

What else can you tell us about Michigan rehabilitative services?

Unknown: 8:25

The great thing about Michigan Rehabilitation Services is that there are offices all over the state of Michigan. So I work out of the Grand Rapids office, we have right now there is an awful lot. But we have online orientations constantly. But especially now because of the current pandemic. If you were to just type in Michigan rehabilitation services in your Google, one of the first things that would pop up would be the official state website. And on that state website, you can go and click through all the programs that we have to offer, as well as complete an online orientation. And then on one orientation, we kind of guide you through our entire six step process. And if someone was more interested in connecting with their local office, we had, we're still working. We're still here today, a lot of us are teleworking from home. But we are taking new referrals. And we're very happy to help people kind of figure out if competitive employment is the right next step for them. I'd also share that not only do we have folks like myself, who are vocational counselors, but we have another side of our business network division. And that's where we have folks who are going out and talking with employers and building those relationships so that employers are well informed and well educated about the disability population and the benefits, why they need to kind of expand their thinking about their hiring pools and their workforce. It's very much a dual approach. Not only are we helping people with disabilities find employment, but we are helping employers to understand The importance of diversifying their workforce.

Steve: 10:02

And what would you say for a prospective employer? What is the benefit of hiring someone with a developmental disability or a disability?

Unknown: 10:11

I think, I think it honestly depends on the job. And I think it depends, too, you know, certain types of disabilities, I may not recommend certain types of jobs for people knowing their strengths. But I would do the same thing for people who don't have disabilities, I would say don't apply for a job that doesn't cater to your strengths in general. So it is very individualized is a lot of the work that we do. And that's what I would tell him Slayer is if you're working with an Mrs. And you're working with people coming into your job applying for your job, they've been working, they've been working with a counselor, one on one individually to really assess their strengths and their interests to be the best candidate that can be for your job. And then more broadly, I would say hiring people with disabilities just makes sense, because it is the largest minority in the world. And as people continue to age, they themselves as an aging population are acquiring disabilities. So if employers think proactively about this in their hiring practices, they are getting a workforce that used to being creative and ask for accommodations are thinking about things differently than maybe a neurotypical person would think of things. And it's when we think about disability, we can widen that perspective to include many, many people more than just a cool wheelchair icon that we think of. So I think it is a great investment for employers, it makes a lot of sense business standpoint, because the more inclusive you are, the more once you get to know your company, you buy your products know, they can see themselves reflected and people working for you.

Steve: 11:44

And I had heard from a number of sources, but I read in the book, no greatness without goodness, and I can't remember the name of the author. He worked for Walgreens, I think you might be familiar with who I'm talking about. He ran a distribution center, Randy Lewis, Randy Lewis, yes, yes, that the absenteeism among people with disabilities is firefighter less than their non disabled workers, they end up showing up to work, they're very grateful for the opportunity, they take their jobs more seriously. That's probably not 100%. But it's it's a noticeable percentage of people that are very, very good employees, if they're, if they have a disability because they take their job very seriously.

Unknown: 12:25

Absolutely. Another thing, I think I would like listeners to know about any kind of rehabilitation agency that's helping folks with disabilities find employment, one of the biggest misconceptions that we often receive is that it's going to be a quick fix, and that we have kind of jobs in our backpack. It's just lined up for folks. But it really is a process, it can take a couple of months to determine eligibility, because we want to make sure we're asking all the right questions, getting all the right test, getting can have everything figured out before a person is even determined eligible for our services. And then that career exploration phase and looking at your skills, looking at your interests, looking at the job market, that can take another few months. And then of course, job searching can take many months on his own for anybody. So that's something that I would want people to know, wherever they are going into an agency like an Mrs. That's part of the state, state agencies, it will take time. And it's time that's needed, because it's time that we'll be assessing and working with that individual to determine if we really are the right place for them to be. And what can we do to help them get to the employment outcome that they desire

Steve: 13:34

to have the things I wanted to visit about and want to miss some of your life experiences living with disability? I know from what you have written and what I've heard, when you speak is that your faith plays a very central role in what you do. This summer, you were to speak at the helped me with the name here. That was the summer institute and theology and disability. disability, yeah, over at Hope College in Holland, but a virus got in the way of that. And now we are all in social isolation. And that was sad to hear that because I really wanted to go there and hear you speak. What would you say to that group, and in terms of your personal faith in what you see is the integral integration of disability and theology. And that could take a long time. So I understand that maybe that's a topic for a whole other episode, but give us the quick tour, perhaps?

Unknown: 14:24

Sure. Well, I think I was fortunate enough, I was going to speak at the Institute of theology and disability, a specifically about mental health in the Christian faith, because my, in my role, I'm a social worker by profession. And so I'd spend a lot of time on working with people with mental health diagnoses. And it was one area that I found that the church could still grow in a lot of ways. So I think I what I wanted to do, was very much speak about mental health from a reformed Christian perspective. I'm a member of a PCA so Presbyterian Church. In America, and I very much focused my study of Reformed theology and combined it kind of with with my experience, personally and professionally of disability, and I wanted to bring kind of that research and knowledge to this conference, using great resources that I've found over the years. But overall, I think my, my faith in Jesus is very central to everything I do, I very much believe in the truth of the gospel, that this whole world is kind of marred by original sin and the brokenness and we kind of see that everywhere else, broken relationships and broken systems. And I've come to recognize that my disability, while it may not have been part of God's original design for the world in creation, has been used as a tool for me to become more like Christ in the time that I'm suffering, because there are times that I suffer with these physical limitations. But it's also given me a very unique tool with which to view scripture and to say, Okay, I have been given these disabilities, what am I supposed to do with them and in service to God?

Steve: 16:15

It's interesting that in Scripture, you'll find all these broken people, every major character in the Bible, it seems except for Jesus had some kind of flaw in some kind of character flaw or physical flaw. St. Paul talked about this thorn in his side, we don't know what it was. But that's an indication that these are things we work around and actually give you, like you said, some conviction to to live your life as close to Christ is you can, the Bible is full of heroic people that all had challenges of one kind or another. And it's very interesting that some people would think of themselves perhaps as being a victim in this actually is maybe a source of a superpower, at least in your witness.

Unknown: 16:57

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, I think, I think I'm very careful about kind of either one of those, you know, the victim mentality, or being an object of pity, or that kind of superhero mentality? Because I worry that that makes me sound a bit more pious than I actually am.

Steve: 17:15

No, I don't, I don't mean it. And I don't mean it that way. And I hope you understand that. It's more like, we all talk about having a superpower of some kind, you know, especially parents of going through initial diagnosis, and they become warriors, they go out there for the cause. And they put a lot of hours into something and they say, that's your superpower, they're fighting for the child. But again, we're all flawed. Okay, we all fall short, but it does help you focus on what's important in, I would call that a superpower and meet it in a kind of a loving and gentle way that that raises expectations, because Lord knows, we can't stand the light of those expectations, and other people might have. But so thank you, you're welcome. Like, you know, I think you, you are very convicted individual in the work that you do, what are some of the experiences that maybe you've come across in your life, both good and bad. I've been reading lately about ableism, that a couple podcast episodes on ableism. And it's one of those things that perhaps before I was looking for it, I didn't see it, but once you see it, you can't unsee it, it becomes much more evident in a culture. It's almost like that sign that says Jesus, and it's made out of the sticks. And until you see the name Jesus in there, you just think it's a bunch of pieces of wood. But once you see Jesus, you can't unsee it. And I think that's pretty much the case, when it comes to ableism that you begin to pick up on certain phrases or certain nuances that people in society have and realize that it's objectifying people, and it's defining them and limiting them in it. Sometimes people are doing it with good intentions. It's a time when it can challenge your capacity for grace, let's put it that way. And I'm sure you've had some like that.

Unknown: 19:00

Yeah, I think, um, the term ableism is one that I didn't know about until about three or four years ago. And to be to be completely transparent. I think it's still a term that I wrestle with, I think I wrestle with it because I'm, I am hesitant to very much be a part of, you know, this societal piece that kind of labels in terms of everything as this is ablest sexist, racist. I, as much as I see those things, I, I'm hesitant to constantly use the word but experiences of ableism are definitely true. And so there is kind of this tension between what I have experienced and my discomfort with the word itself. But you know, I think the very first time I remember it happening in my adult life, I had applied for a job in a very poor neighborhood in Boston, and it was going to be like a kind of liaison between home and School. So being the communicator between parents and teachers of these fifth and sixth graders in, again, a really impoverished part of town. And so I had the phone interview. And in the phone interview, not knowing that I didn't have to reveal this, I did reveal that I had cerebral palsy, and they were fine with it. And then they said, Okay, come on, fly out to Boston to do an in person all day interview. So, I took my entire savings of what I had done, through working through college, and I spent it on the plane tickets in the hotel fair, and flew out to Boston, Massachusetts, a week after graduating from Calvin and navigated the city by myself, you know, all these things, it was it was a whirlwind 48 hours, and I got there to the interview. And I had my white cane, which I use because of my vision. And I went to shake the man's hand who was interviewing me, and he was about 2526. And when I went to shake his hand, my cane fell out from underneath my arm and kind of rolled to his feet, and very much announced that I'm legally blind. And she was very hesitant about it. And it changed our whole relationship the entire day. And no matter how well I did with the students, how much I connected with them, or found creative ways to teach them their English homework, he was very skeptical, and very suspicious the entire day. And at the end of the day, you know, he kept down he kept asking questions like, how will you do this job? How will you see if you probably teach the students if you can't see and I, I had to, I kept saying, you've got letters of recommendation from Calvin College, Social Work professors and English professors who speak to the character and the quality of the work that I'd be able to bring to this position. And he just acted very afraid of his perceptions of what I could or could not do. And at the very end of the day, he concluded the interview time by saying, Are your parents going to come pick you up right now. And I explained to him that No, I'd be taking a taxi to Baltimore, to the airport to then fly to Baltimore than fly back to Grand Rapids. And he was absolutely shocked that I had made the trip on my own. And his eyes got very, very large. And I didn't, I did not end up getting the job. And it was a very, it was a very rigid form letter of we've decided to go with someone else. But I knew in that moment when, even when I left that day, that he could not see past his fears and misconceptions about what it would mean for a woman with disabilities to work in the school system. Because as much as he would praise how well I was connecting with the students, and how well I understood what they were teaching and trying to relate with them. They were just constant emotional roadblocks that I saw him fighting with throughout the whole day. And it broke me to be quite honest with you. I had every dream to live in Boston. That's what I told everyone I was going to do when I graduated. And to not get that job was like it felt like a huge slap in the face. And I thought, How am I supposed to work if the world won't give me a chance. And thankfully, I you know, I believe that God is sovereign. And so I wasn't meant to be in Boston, I have a wonderful life here that I wouldn't have had had that job worked out. But it was definitely a first taste of Okay, you better prepare yourself for the ways in which the world is not going to be ready for your gifts, because they see what they perceive in deficit.

Steve: 23:40

That is an amazing story. It seems to me that that was that interviewers disability that he couldn't see past his own prejudice. Yeah. But But again, I really appreciate your your hindsight on that. Because I've been I've been around significantly longer than you have. I'm retired. And every good thing that has happened in my life, I had to go through something bad to get to it. There's some kind of disappointment. And it's made me that's how we learn. We learn our lessons better, and we become better people for it. Now. Yeah, you're right. You wouldn't have the good life you have here now. And speaking of which, you just passed the second anniversary of something significant in your life a couple weeks ago, didn't you?

Unknown: 24:19

Yes, it was that my husband, David and I was our second wedding anniversary.

Steve: 24:24

That is really cool. Where did you meet David?

Unknown: 24:28

We met at a mutual friend's birthday party here in Grand Rapids was living here for a summer. She came to town and she was having a party. And I guess her brother was visiting David. And so she just invited David as well. And she thought we would hit it off. She very much believed that so I have her to thank for setting us up.

Steve: 24:48

So if you had taken the job in Boston, you might never met your husband.

Unknown: 24:52

Absolutely. So

Steve: 24:53

yeah. It helps to know that when you face your next disappointment in life, that God always has something better please And for you, you just haven't had a chance to open that gift. So cool. We went through some life experiences, what kind of advice would you give to a younger? casandra? If you could do that? Why don't you wish you'd go back in time sometime and give yourself advice as a younger person so that you wouldn't make some mistakes?

Unknown: 25:18

Yeah.

Steve: 25:20

If you were able to have some young person coming in maybe seeking employment for the first time, who has some fears because of disability, that they feel judged? Or they feel marginalized? What kind of advice? Would you give that person? Or can you give that person? Let's put it that way?

Unknown: 25:37

I think I would, I would absolutely. empathize with those fears, to say like, yep, those are real fears, and you should be allowed to feel them. Find a place to work those fears out. But don't be defined by those fears. And yes, you probably will face discrimination as you're entering the workforce are trying to figure out what life is like for you independently, because unfortunately, that's how our world is. And we still have to keep educating, you still have to keep advocating. And a lot of that work is has been done by people with disabilities and needs to continue to be done by people with disabilities and allies of family and friends who love us and who can support us in our strength. So I would advise someone, as difficult as it might be. And as much as you might hate it, you really will be the one who will continue to educate and inform people by just living your life by just going out there and doing the best you can do with what you've been given. So that's what you have to do that you have to live your life to the best of the ability that you have sharing your gifts with the world in the best of the ability that you can, and there will be doubters and there will be naysayers, but if you are living authentically, in pursuing your dreams and your goals, then you may change some people's perceptions along the way.

Steve: 26:54

Absolutely, I'd be we could all think of people that made a major difference in our lives. And they might not even know what something they said or did at a time when we really needed to hear that you've got a very good grasp on what it takes to advise and to minister to people that have those needs. In particular, when you mentioned that it's okay to feel certain ways, I think that a lot of people might feel bitter, or they might feel disappointed, they might be self judging. And they think they're the only one that's going through that. And it really helps when they realize that that's a normal part of living, it's part of being human, we all have good days and bad days. And they do pass. And if you have someone that you can be open and honest with that you could be vulnerable with if you have somebody who's close, so what kind of standard you're having a bad day, or you're having a wonderful day and you want to share it, those people are truly gifts from God,

Unknown: 27:44

it took me a long time to be okay with with angry feelings or disappointed feelings. And so I would, I would encourage people, the earlier in your life where you can be okay with feeling not okay. And not, don't live there. Don't become a victim, but feel the feeling and then move on. I think that's really,

Steve: 28:03

very wise, it's been a delight to visit with you. I would love to be able to hear if they ever if they reschedule or have a different venue or someplace where you can give that talk about theology and disability and mental health, Happy belated anniversary. Hang in there. It's great. I've been married for 36 years now, you only got 34 more to go. Hopefully you got like 50 or 100 years ago, I hope that you remain safe and remain well.

Unknown: 28:30

Well, thank you to Steve and this was this was a delightful conversation as well. So thank you so much for having

Steve: 28:35

Oh, thank you for being our guest. You take care. Bye, bye.

Kerry Johnson: 28:49

Hi, this is Carrie for any first timers to our podcast. I am your co host and manager of the unlucky chat cafe. That's the part where we wrap up each podcast with a discussion about the interview, Steve just walked in. So let's grab a cup and a chair and get to get Steve, what do you have for us today?

Steve: 29:09

I learned quite a bit about Michigan rehabilitation services, things I didn't know they do a comprehensive job of finding out what someone's skills and strengths are is that placing a body someplace they're really trying to make a good match. They're trying to set them up for success. And that's why it takes such a long time to find the right job.

Kerry Johnson: 29:28

Yes, I thought it was interesting that she said it's not a quick

Steve: 29:31

fix, right? We don't have jobs in our pocket. We're just right. And I think that's good. Because if someone has some uncertainty about getting into the job market, because it might be something new or it's been a long time since they've worked, the last thing you want to do is have a series of failures. So they go for a really good matchup in a relationship. And I also found out some more things about casandra that I think were pretty remarkable. The things that I wrote down immediately after I chatted with her right was it remarkable courage, indomitable spirit. She's a warrior of faith. She's deeply rooted in her faith. Yes. And she's also a very gifted writer. One of the things that she has on her Facebook site is Gen 16, verse 33, I have told you these things so that in me, you may have peace in this world, you will have trouble But take heart, I have overcome the world, that assurance that she has been able to develop and pass on to people that you're going to feel disappointed. Absolutely. Those are legitimate feelings. Just don't live there. Right. Right. Give yourself permission to feel the disappointments or the grief for the whatever it is, but but let yourself move past that also.

Unknown: 30:41

Okay. Yeah, I

Steve: 30:42

like that, you know, take heart, I have overcome the world.

Unknown: 30:45

It's okay. Indeed. And again,

Steve: 30:47

she also has on a little meme on one of her social media sites. And she's kind of looking at the camera and it says, I have lost my sight, but not my vision.

Kerry Johnson: 30:57

I love that. It is really cool. Really do it's, that's exactly it. I know that as I review all the various experts and and things throughout our experience with our son, Liam, all the people telling me the things that he can and cannot do and, and that that's always been something in the back of my mind as well that, you know, I may have lost my sight or I may have lost some ground, but I still have my vision, I still have my goals, I still have things that I'm going to continue to work for

Steve: 31:30

it often the disability can clarify the vision, you see past them. Yeah. Well, you that fired to that is our goal is to get people to see past them. And you know, what you just said to just makes me think that a lot of the way the world looks at disability does deficit based? Hmm. It's it's what they can't do what they have to overcome this have to overcome that because they can't do this. And they can't do that there's really not an emphasis on what are the gifts? And what are the ambitions, the vision you have? Right. And I don't think that I was aware of that, let's say 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago, as I am now. It's more what you can't do, rather than what you can do or what your passion is mainly due to

Kerry Johnson: 32:11

right. I like that Michigan Rehabilitation Services seem to actually take the time to figure it out. Absolutely. I kind of like that.

Steve: 32:20

Yeah, you're not just a sale rate, you know, because I'm not trying to put down other job places. But you know, they're getting a commission when they get somebody placed into a work so that the emphasis is is basically on getting the bodies out there. Getting them employed. This is more like a good match.

Kerry Johnson: 32:40

Right? Right.

Steve: 32:41

This is like a very serious dating service. Good match here. Wait a good matchup, so that they have success,

Kerry Johnson: 32:48

right? We want success. Cool.

Steve: 32:49

I also was very impressed with the job interview. And I what I like about, again, her indomitable spirit, and her courage is that she's in a position to be able to pass this on to other people she's working with. Nice, yeah, I think that it puts her in such a great position to help and influence other people. And I would hope that other folks working for organizations like Michigan rehabilitation services, have that same kind of passion,

Kerry Johnson: 33:16

right? It's so it's so wonderful to know that somebody else has also had that thing happened to them, or that experience happened to them or has faced that issue, because of their disability that somebody didn't see them and their capabilities, because they got stuck at this. And not just this. Yeah.

Steve: 33:37

So much more, so much more. So she has a very good perspective and tell that she loves what she does, oh, he sees the meaning and the purpose. And that's great. So I very much enjoyed the talk. And I hope to have her back on the show again,

Kerry Johnson: 33:54

in the future. And I'm sure we're gonna have some fabulous links and information in regards to how we can hook up with her blogs or different things that she does. And it's such

Steve: 34:08

an honor, what I will do is I'll post that meme that talks about I've lost my sight but not my vision cuz I think it's just it's very well poised

Kerry Johnson: 34:15

for photograph to you. Lovely, lovely. So check out our Facebook for some of that information and anything else?

Steve: 34:22

No, you want to take us out?

Kerry Johnson: 34:24

Sure. I'd like to give a big thank you to our producer Alexander Johnson for all the behind the scenes work that he does. Our artistic director, Holly Johnson, she does our creative workings. Daniela, a lot of Johnson's involved there. Well, you know, he got the right when you got the right Mojo. Go with it. I know. I know. Daniela Munoz is our intern and she does a lot of the behind the scenes things and and gets things ready to go out to the various individuals that we Interview with and of course, our listeners. Thank you so much for tuning in and listening to us and keep it up.

Steve: 35:08

Please make comments on Facebook, which you like what you think we can improve on and any types of programs or shows that you would like to hear more about

Kerry Johnson: 35:16

or ideas you would like us to explore

Steve: 35:19

Exactly. We depend upon you to tell us what direction to take us indeed.

Kerry Johnson: 35:23

Thanks for listening.

Unknown: 35:24

Thank you.